Taking Healthcare by Storm: Industry Insights with Dr. Chris Peterson

In this episode of Taking Healthcare by Storm, Quality Insights Medical Director Dr. Jean Storm speaks with Dr. Chris Peterson, an anesthesiologist, ordained Buddhist priest, meditation teacher, and mindfulness counselor. 

 Dr. Peterson describes how a midlife crisis and Buddhist counseling deepened his meditation practice and shaped his view of mindfulness as a tool for awakening and compassionate care. He discusses how mindfulness helps clinicians reduce burnout and self-criticism, helps patients manage chronic pain, and warns that wellness programs and AI must prioritize humanity over productivity in healthcare. 

If you have any topics or guests you'd like to see on future episodes, reach out to us on our website.

The views and opinions expressed by the host and guests are their own and do not necessarily reflect the views, positions, or policies of Quality Insights. Publication number QI-041726-GK

Transcript

Welcome to "Taking Healthcare by Storm: Industry Insights," the podcast that delves into the captivating intersection of innovation, science, compassion, and care. 

In each episode, Quality Insights’ Medical Director Dr. Jean Storm will have the privilege of engaging with leading experts across diverse fields, including dieticians, pharmacists, and brave patients navigating their own healthcare journeys. 

Our mission is to bring you the best healthcare insights, drawing from the expertise of professionals across West Virginia, Pennsylvania and the nation.

Subscribe now, and together, we can take healthcare by storm.

Hi everyone, and welcome to another episode of Taking Healthcare by Storm. I am Dr. Jean Storm, the medical director here at Quality Insights. Today's guest brings together two worlds that don't often appear side by side, but perhaps they should. I feel they should. Dr. Christopher Peterson is a pediatric anesthesiologist who has spent decades caring for patients in some of their most vulnerable moments. He's also an ordained Buddhist priest, meditation teacher and mindfulness counselor dedicated to helping people suffer less and live with greater clarity. Compassion. His journey into meditation began with a simple curiosity about the mind and deepened over the years into a daily practice and spiritual calling. Today, he leads meditation groups, supports individuals through mindfulness based counseling, and works to build accessible spaces for reflection and healing within the community. In our conversation we'll explore how the teachings of the Buddha can serve as a guide for modern life, the role of mindfulness in medicine, the connection between presence and anesthesiology, and how meditation can help both patients and providers navigate pain, stress, and suffering with greater awareness. I am very excited to get started in this conversation, Dr. Chris Peterson. Chris, thank you so very much for joining me today. Thank you, Jean. I'm looking forward to this. Yes, you've, as I said, you've built a career as a pediatric anesthesiologist while also becoming an ordained Buddhist priest. That's very unusual, I think most people would say. How did these two paths come together in your life and what drew you from an early curiosity about the mind? As I mentioned in the introduction. Into a deeper commitment to meditation and spiritual practice in general? Oh, that's a great question. And Jean, let me just clarify. As a pediatric anesthesiologist, I did take care of a lot of children. I did a lot of time doing pediatric open heart cases, and when I came to a center that didn't offer those, I got more involved in taking care of the regular children. So I'm a person who's really comfortable, but I've not done like a formal pediatric. Anesthesiology fellowship. So in case any of my peers or other anesthesiologists want to call me out on that, I just wanna put that out there for you to start. But yeah, I mean, I don't think these two things, the anesthesia part and the Buddhist part came together in a way that I. I felt your question was asking, but I think what, what happened was, I think the career of medicine and trying to raise children early in my life and have a relationship, I think I missed out on a lot of things. I was trying to be the best person I could based on, you know, what I could learn about medicine, trying to be the best doctor, trying to be the best dad. And I mean, just to be completely upfront, what happened to me was I had like a little existential crisis of, you might call it like a midlife awakening or something like that, where just out of nowhere I'd say my psyche was just jarred in a way that I had never seen it coming and I struggled a lot like with kind of depression at that time. Just trying to, not trying to make sense of things and I saw counselors, I saw psychiatrists, I saw marriage counselors. I and the person that was most helpful to me was actually a Buddhist priest who was a psychologist also. And his ability to help me see. How I'd missed understanding so much of my life and how to get myself back on track again. Was life changing, probably the most significant thing that happened to me in my life so far. So in a way I think it was, you know, when, when I put it into the bigger picture of. Like the story of the Buddha, which we mentioned earlier and uh, maybe we can get into is that I was suffering and I didn't really know it. I mean, I knew I was suffering, but I didn't know why. And as you might know, the the noble truth, the first noble truth of Buddhism is really like the suffering exists around us and there are ways to suffer less is is the second noble truth pretty much. I was at a place, I think, created by my career, created by the work around me, created by the decisions created by the ways that I had lived my life. Thinking I was living them with clarity and wisdom, but really I was probably just. Slingshot it into this career from an early age based on what my parents' expectations were, what my, you know, I happened to be good at science and math and things, and it was fairly easy to go through the whole training process, but like there were parts of me that were unexamined and the teacher at that time had me pause, and that was when I really started meditating a lot more. I'd taken some transcendental meditation class that is in college and did this. But it really wasn't that meaningful for me. And there was no real explanation about like, why this would work. There's no psychology associated with it. But this, experience with the teacher and how I started to learn more really gave me tools. To deal with the challenges that arose in my life and in medicine and that would be, I know it's probably more than you expected there. No, no, no. It was perfect. You mentioned the story of the Buddha, and you and I have kind of already have gone back and forth. You know, if people listening are familiar with the story of the Buddha, but you've said that it, it can be seen as a metaphor for awakening to our own lives. So how can that story serve as a practical guide for how people live, work, and as you said, respond to suffering? Oh my gosh, that's a, another really great question and I think that, so let's just take it step backward. The word metaphor is really important for me here. I am probably what people would call a secular Buddhist. My training really was more in Zen Buddhism, which is very different, but related in a great way to the myth of the Buddha. But it's. I guess it, it's a good fit for me and it was what my teacher really introduced me to, and it's where I've taken it myself, like zen practice. But I think that to look at the story as a myth is stronger than looking at it as a literal story. I mean, myths are really clues about spiritual. Potentials of human life. And every culture has them. Some people take myths literally, but I find it more profound to take them metaphorically. So I think the way you asked that question is great. And that's how I would have, and I mean, there's, there are a few things that the story of the Buddha really is about transforming. Ourselves, I mean the Buddha. Well, let's try to give you a real simple rundown, and we can break it down more if you want, but, uh, the story of the Buddha, the Buddha was raised like a prince. With his family, trying not to let him see the outside world because there'd been a prophecy about him possibly becoming a religious spiritual leader. And his father would rather have him not be that he wanted him to just be a king and instead, so he was kept from seeing a lot of pain and suffering, and he escaped. Probably the midpoint of his life, uh, you could say. So there's like an analogy there. And saw bits of the world and saw suffering, saw aging, sickness, death, and also saw like spiritual people wandering and was drawn to those things with questions, trying to understand them more. And, then basically followed these aesthetics, who basically at that time in the history were trying to separate their body from their soul. There was this idea that the more you beat up your body, the more you submitted it to fasting, to exposure to the elements that, you know, somehow it would weaken and the soul would come forward. And this was kind of, I imagine the thinking at around the time of the Buddha and the Buddha did this for many years and really didn't have any big awakenings, but then. After being exhausted and, and starved. He found himself sitting under a tree and a goat herding girl. Basically brought him some rice and rice milk they say, and taking that rice milk and sitting under the tree and basically meditating. He was able to see the, his connection with. The universe, he was able to have this awakening. There's a lot more to it. And he then chose to go on and into the world and teach and share these things. And it's kind of like a monomyth, like if you're familiar with Joseph Campbell and the idea of a monomyth and if people wanna research that it's kind of a a cool thing. But a lot of myths have the same components to their stories and, so I think that the big thing is that the Buddha was drawn to suffering, and I believe that people in the healthcare profession are drawn. To suffering too. Suffering. I mean, really our kind of goal is to relieve the suffering and sickness of people and you know, this is what we do. So I think there's an analogy there. One of the things my teacher taught me early on to when you're reading teacher teachings of Buddhism, is he used to say that the, he goes, if it has to do with the suffering, suffering or the relief of suffering, it is dharma. It is the teaching of the Buddha. If it doesn't, could just, it's just anything. So I believe that people will. Give you another little story is that one of the big ideas in Buddhism, at least as I was I see it, is that we've been conditioned to see the world in a certain way. And all the experiences from our inherited, or inherited psychology of, just like our ancestors that had to hoard food or hoard things to survive, we have little bits of those things in us. In addition, we have our relationships with our mothers when we were little and how that formed us, and how whether mothers or a, a maternal figure was there for us or not. Uh, a paternal figure that. Taught us about going into the world and what the rules are, how our peers saw us, the things we were exposed to. All those things create a lens through which we see the world. The reality of it is that everybody's lens is different and probably none of them are really clear. It's all clouded by our experiences, our ideas, and the idea of a, a practice is, I teach it and see it myself. Is that, how can we. See things clearer and instead of always coming from a place of our own conditioning, come from a place of clarity, come from a place of wisdom, compassion. And this would be the shift that I believe a person takes. And I, to go back to the story, that sometimes we need to pause just like the Buddha pause. And mindfulness gets us out of our own narrative gets us out of the story that we're telling ourselves and our mind, which is based usually on our conditioning, and basically get to pay attention to just notice things and take a step back. So not assuming that we know, and I think that. It translates into medicine a lot. There are things we know and we do have to make decisions, but sometimes we're so locked in going down a path that may or may not be right just because we've had experience or conditioning or exposure to that. Um, so biases, things like that. One of the things too, I'll just throw in a little thing from Zen that it is like a, practice that somehow relates to this a little bit is. There are three parts to this. the wisdom of not knowing would be the first, where we are very curious about things. We don't pretend to know the answer. And that kind of translates into a beginner's mind, which you might've heard that term. Yeah. Where it's like, if you've already, you know, in the mind of the beginner, the. options are many because you don't know anything, so you hold all things interesting and, and as possibilities in the mind of the expert the possibilities are few because you've already narrowed it down or so you think. So to embrace situations with this wisdom of not knowing. The second part is like what we call bearing witness, where again, you don't feel you need to intervene right away. but you are just present. You're accompanying somebody or yourself on the path without feeling. You have to fix something. And I think in medicine, we feel we have to fix everything. And I think there's a lot of pressure to do that. There's a lot of pressure to write prescriptions. There's a lot of pressure to jump in or give advice, and sometimes people want that, but sometimes they just want somebody to listen. So this bearing witness and then the final thing is compassionate action. So after sitting with those first two, being curious and not jumping to conclusions and not trying to fix things right away, you may see an opportunity to, what is the most compassionate thing I can do at this moment? And it might just be to keep being present. It might continue to give somebody a hug. It might con it could be anything. And I think in medicine we deal with a lot of things where there's not. Great solutions to things and just being there and supporting can be very, just really the right, compassionate thing to do. I had another thought about this too, is that, oh, the idea that I think in this story too there's an idea. The, the goat hurting person. This compassionate action involved another person. It involved others. It wasn't just the Buddhist sitting himself or going through all this process and I think you could see that. All the things that we can do might involve others. It might involve relationships we have. It might involve a mentor, it might involve a wellness program, like at a hospital that, you know, helps somebody come out through on the other side of, of a process they're going through. So there's this idea that, we all help ourselves along the way too, if that makes sense at all. Yeah. I, you know, I wanted to kind of shift a little bit and talk about, um, meditation and, and mindfulness and, its place in with, I I wanted to first ask about healthcare providers, and then I wanted to talk about, patients maybe living with chronic illness and chronic pain. So have you seen. Meditation and mindfulness reduce burnout and stress and emotional exhaustion among healthcare providers. I have, I mean, and I've seen some of it in just myself, like my own personal experience. It has I have started some groups at the hospital. And the people that came, found them very helpful. And again, some of it is sharing common things, giving people a place to talk about things. Another thing I think is that having a mindfulness practice, again, takes you out of your head, allows you to pay more attention to what's going on and to be curious and. Those things can touch your life in a lot of different areas. It can touch them at home, it can touch them with the way you're raising your kids. It can touch 'em with financial problems, sick parents, you know, whatever you're dealing with. So it's not just about the work itself, but it's about like your life tends to be a little better, If that makes sense. I mean, because as healthcare providers, you know, you go to work all day, you get like this compassion fatigue, taking care of everybody, everyone else. And you come home and the everybody at home wants you to take care of them too. And, uh, it's hard. So to have the ability to clear your mind a little bit, come back fresh to not, you know, to separate these things out and not. Right away go into you know, what, what's the problem? But being able to again, sit back, bear witness to these things find this piece, and, and I believe that the practice of meditation. Basically bringing yourself back to the moment when you're realizing you're having thoughts. How simplify it that much is even is that I think your brain, like new neural pathways are formed and as they're formed they become easier to activate. You know, and this has been shown psychologically that just like practicing an instrument, the more that you do something, the more it becomes easier and the, and the neural pathways tend to fire. Nerves that fire together, wire together. And you create a change, a shift from, for instance, going over things repetitively in your mind, telling yourself the same story. Or if somebody does something wrong or if you do something wrong as a doctor, you might beat yourself up. And that beating yourself up adds to the suffering isn't really clear or helpful. So to be able to have a mind that's trained to more easily shift away and, and be compassionate and is, is very helpful. I think. I think these things are really hard to measure. I think that's one of the problems, like in science and medicine, we wanna measure everything and have metrics. And I think it's hard, you know, like, it's kind of like, you know, you're happy some days and, you know, how do you quantify that? Um, or you, you find joy in things, but you know, so I, I don't think it's well studied to say like, yes. I think you'll find a lot of soft data out there. But it's almost like you, if you try it, it usually works and you notice it yourself. So you want to continue to have the practice, or at least, you know, you should be practicing whether you do or not. But if that makes any sense, maybe like exercise, you know, like not everybody exercises, but when you do and you're doing it, you know that, you're feeling better about your life and your body. And I think there are maybe, maybe there are eventually gonna be ways to measure things, but perhaps, you know, we don't have them right now, but that doesn't mean there's not benefit. Yes. Yeah. You know, I wanted to all I wanted to talk about patients a little bit and, you know, individuals who are suffering, particularly from chronic pain, From a clinical perspective and a spiritual perspective, 'cause you have both. How can mindfulness and meditation help individuals who live with chronic pain experience less suffering? So, I know it's very hard. I've taken care of a lot of individuals with chronic pain, mostly in nursing homes. And it's very challenging when you to try to get people to. Maybe think about their suffering in a different way. So can mindfulness and meditation play a role with chronic pain, even though even the pain itself may not change or go away? Yes. I really think it can. Now, I don't wanna minimize people's pain at all 'cause I think there is a physical pain. Beyond the physical pain, there's like a suffering that the mind imposes on top of that. You know, for instance, the fears we might have about what this means, the stories we tell ourselves when we're having our pain, is it gonna get worse? What will my life be like? What's causing this pain? Will I ever be better? Those types of things. And. Instead of, again, telling the stories, maybe shifting to being more curious about it, noticing it versus telling the story can be very helpful. It takes it as something separate than it's this thing that's destroying your life that you, you know, we, we wanna tell ourselves over and over again when we're suffering. I also think stress, in life can make pain worse. I mean, I've had that, you know, you get some little bit of back pain and it's a busy day and you're running around and it's crazy. You know, your back pain's crazy, but then you know, you have a couple days off and it's so much better. So again, a practice that helps you deal with the other things in your life and look at them better can take away some of the stress. In Buddhism there's what they call like a second arrow effect, where like you have the pain, but then you have all the superimposed suffering from, trying to get rid of it or wishing things were different. And like a little analogy that sometimes people have me, I use to, to, to. To help you see it is, for instance, let's say both you and I, were going to have something painful happen to us in 24 hours and you know, whether it's was, we know we're gonna get a bone broken or we're gonna get a tattoo, but it's gonna be done with a branding iron. And we both decide this is gonna happen. We're told it's gonna happen. It's like between now and tomorrow. We won't have felt any pain, but we're gonna suffer a lot worrying about it and thinking about it. so we could get to that point. And then people are like, oh no, we're just kidding. This isn't gonna happen. And be like, oh my gosh. Like I ruined my whole, you know, 24 hours. Yeah. Not enjoying it, not being present, you know? And this is how it could work for people that have the pain. Like you have the pain, but then you have all the suffering on top of it too. And I think where that's, that would be the mechanism how I would, I would see that happening. I wanted to go back. Can you clarify if I go back to No. One of the questions about work Yeah. And exhaustion. I, I had one of the things. I worry about with healthcare institutions is that sometimes they do these interventions for wellness with more of a concern for either the bottom line or just saying that, okay, we're doing this, you know, to put on our checklist, and There is a concern from like a Buddhist community that sometimes these are not wellness programs aren't meant to change, what is actually hurting the people or harming them, but to just be more like an anodyne or an opiate. That says like, okay, now here you can manage this, so go back to work type of thing. And I think you have to be very careful about that. If that makes sense. So no step in that one. Yeah. So I think like when you look at, and the other thing too is sometimes what I've found in this is, Sometimes it's like a shotgun approach. Like people grab everything that is like maybe not mainstream health and say, okay, all this is somehow wellness. And I think thing, I think those things are very different sometimes. You know, people lump like aroma therapy it's like. Along with something like a practice, a serious meditation. I mean, to me, those things are really totally different and unrelated. Yet they always seem to get some things like that lumped together. So, I mean, those are just some observations. And personal thoughts I've had about that. Yeah, definitely. And also on social media, I think that happens. Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. Like crystals or pyramids or, you know, chakras or this or that. I mean, I don't pretend to know anything about those things and and maybe a whole unexplored world, but to put it on the same in this, at the same meeting. A wellness group for the hospital. It's like, wait a minute, we're not right. You know, we're kind of all over the place here. I just wanted to touch briefly and get your insights with ai because obviously it's becoming more integrated into healthcare and daily life like. You know, I, I, you can do meditations with AI and do you see a place for it in supporting meditation and mindfulness? I mean, I'll say just initially for me, I've kind of, I don't, um, you know, for me it's something that, that personally happens, you know, outside of technology. But, do you see a place for it in, in meditation or mindfulness or do you think, you know, maybe like me that, that it just must remain, you know, human and personal? It's a good question and indirectly I think it will, like if AI automates things that aren't really value added time for us. We could be freed up to focus on the things that are more rewarding, more patient, peer, personal stuff. It would make the jobs more satisfying. Do you know what I mean? Like, so I think if it's used in that way it can take away mundane tasks that might be irritating and contributing to our burnout. But then There's this idea been hearing about like technology driven deflation where the benefits of, the technology should really make our lives easier and better and be passed on. But if it's just, again, if, if it's integrated in a way, just like, okay, now we can take tests from the doctors so we can make 'em see more patients, that's not gonna be helpful. So I think AI needs to be integrated ethically. Clinician wellbeing should be part of the metrics when they do this. And transparency about if money's being saved by AI in the healthcare industry, how is it being distributed? Is it just going to the top and, the companies and the insurance companies? Or will the people on the ground benefit from this? Will patients benefit from it other than just again, the, the financial side of this, I can say that I use AI a lot to learn about things, and I find it really helpful, like even to ask questions about Buddhism. Like I think it's a great resource when you want to drill deeper into things. I think we're really early in this and I, I mean, maybe you're asking like a bigger question, like, could AI help me meditate in a deeper way? but I've had AI make some interesting suggestions of things that I didn't see myself. And then I try to look at it in different ways. Like, one thing I've asked recently is about like. The craziness in the world. You know, like you, on the one hand, you wanna rage about it, on the other hand you're like, raging about it is ruining my life. Ai, if you ask that question, how can I deal with this? It, it gets some interesting answers and it kind of helps with suffering and the relief is suffering if it's used properly. But I think again, it's all, you know, how are we gonna use it If we, are we gonna squander it? And make medicine more industrial instead of making it more humane would be a question I guess I'd ask. Yeah. I agree. Yes. So last, the last question I, I wanna ask you and um, I ask this question of almost every guest, if you were given the opportunity to reshape healthcare in the United States. What is the first change you would make to better support, healing and the reduction of suffering and the reduction of burnout and stress and emotional exhaustion you know, for providers and patients? Oh, my Gene, that's a good question. And, and the healthcare industry is so complex and The one thing that's come to me a lot is more patient responsibility would probably be the thing I would try to change. And I, I would do, I would think that like education from a very early age, but exercise, diet, mindfulness practices, those types of things, like from a really early age, integrating it this into the system, more community resources for food, exercise, relationships. Sometimes I think about removing the middleman, you know, the insurance companies and layers of administration, but I have no idea really how to do that. And I think, being aware of how fast things are changing, like the dilemma of the impact of technology acceleration and screen time and where's this taking us and how can we deal with it? But putting some of this on the patient and I. No, that's not gonna get rid of everything. But I think those are kind of, there'd be a lot of preventable things or early detection types of things that could be done in that area. And that's probably where I put my focus. I love that. I hope that maybe you get there someday. Let's do it together. Yeah, I agree. So if people wanna find out more about you do you have some place where they can do that? Learn more about what you're doing and your work? I am sadly lacking that I have a website that I haven't really done much with. If they have questions, I'd be happy to answer them or engage. And you can share my email. You can put it on the podcast, but it's Chris CHRI s@zenfossel.com. It's a personal email if you have a, I've been having trouble responding to Gmail addresses for some reason through that, but, I'd be happy to try to answer anything. I look forward to dialoguing and, Putting together networks. I know there's a lot of, like, I was part of our wellness group at the hospital and there's a lot of things out there. Like the a MA has different levels gold, silver, and bronze level of wellness, a awareness. I think Stanford's got some great programs for wellness officers and, there's a lot to be done, but you really need the support of the institution and more than just like a, a, a gentle nod in that direction. I mean, you can accomplish some things. Like the things that we did that really made accomplishments were things like giving women a place to., that were lactating to make lactation pods in places during the busy day and giving them the time to do that. I mean, to me that was a really positive thing that came out of it that. We've, created some spaces around the community and these were a team of people driven by our wellness officer at the time. Um, but just places to eat lunch and to get outside. And some people can't get outside at lunch, like in the, or you can't really leave, you know, you just to eat on the fly or grab some food. So there were a lot of these things that not everybody can get to. But, and another thing I guess I'd throw in there too is that there's. I'm talking about healthcare providers, but I think management people at all levels are suffering from the system that we work in. And, we tend to focus on the providers, but there are people by our sides that are dealing with the exact same things. The pressures the. Financial situation, problems with their children. And you know, again, I think having an ability to calm your mind, having your, an ability to get out of your head, have an ability to see things clearly, compassionately can go a long way for everybody. Yeah. Dr. Chris Peterson. Chris, thank you so very much for joining me today. I really enjoyed the conversation. Thank you, Jean. I appreciate you reaching out. 

Thank you for tuning in to Taking Healthcare by Storm: Industry Insights with Quality Insights Medical Director Dr. Jean Storm. We hope that you enjoyed this episode. If you found value in what you heard, please consider subscribing to our podcast on your favorite platform.

If you have any topics or guests you'd like to see on future episodes, you can reach out to us on our website. We would love to hear from you.

So, until next time, stay curious, stay compassionate, and keep taking healthcare by storm.