Taking Healthcare by Storm: Industry Insights with Jacob Bowling

In this episode of Taking Healthcare by Storm, Quality Insights Medical Director Dr. Jean Storm speaks with Jacob Bowling, MSW, Chief Executive Officer of Bowling Business Strategies (BBS). Jacob discusses his career in behavioral health strategy, the impact of stigma, addiction, and mental health care models. He emphasizes the need for integrated care, addressing disparities, and providing mental health care to healthcare workers to counteract burnout.

Learn more about the Bell Seal for Workplace Mental Health national certification program from Mental Health America.

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Publication number QI-081525-GK

Transcript

Welcome to "Taking Healthcare by Storm: Industry Insights," the podcast that delves into the captivating intersection of innovation, science, compassion, and care. 

In each episode, Quality Insights’ Medical Director Dr. Jean Storm will have the privilege of engaging with leading experts across diverse fields, including dieticians, pharmacists, and brave patients navigating their own healthcare journeys. 

Our mission is to bring you the best healthcare insights, drawing from the expertise of professionals across West Virginia, Pennsylvania and the nation.

Subscribe now, and together, we can take healthcare by storm.

 Hello everyone, and welcome to another episode of Taking Healthcare by Storm. I am Dr. Jean Storm, the medical Director of Quality Insights, and today I'm thrilled to be joined by someone whose work sits at the intersection of strategy, A Policy, and. Purpose in the behavioral health space. Jacob, Jake Bowling brings over a decade of experience designing, leading, and transforming behavioral health systems and services across the country as the CEO of BBS.

Jake steers the firm's vision, development and operations while actively advising on projects that drive strategic planning, service design, and reform in payment and delivery systems before founding Bowling Business Solutions in 2017. BBS. Jake served as Assistant Vice President at the National Council for Behavioral Health, now known as the National Council for Mental Wellbeing, where he led technical assistance and consulting efforts for some of the most impactful federal health initiatives.

His career reflects a deep commitment to ensuring that behavioral health services are engaging. Equitable evidence-based and stigma free. So very important. Right now, Jake holds a master in social work from Temple University and is proud graduate of national leadership programs focused on health, equity and progressive change.

When he is not working, you'll find him exploring the outdoors, experimenting with foods as sharpening his skills in the chess board. Bowling Business Strategies or BBS is a Philadelphia based consulting firm founded in 2017 that partners with organizations nationwide to strengthen healthcare, human services, and behavioral health systems.

BBS supports government agencies, associations, and providers with expert guidance in strategic planning, data analytics, workforce development, technical assistance, and reform implementation. Jacob Bowling. Jake, thank you very much for joining us today. It's great to be here, Jean. Thanks for having me. Yeah.

So your career spans over a decade in behavioral health strategy and policy. What originally drew you to the field and what has kept you invested in it over the years? Well, At the risk of sounding totally cliche, I was drawn into the field by just a desire to help people, and behavioral health specifically was a focus of mine because of my life experiences.

I grew up in the coal fields of Southern West Virginia as the opioid epidemic was escalating.  Around high school and college age in the early two thousands, many of my peers were in the throes of addiction, and I just witnessed as their life trajectories were disrupted. And for many of them it took decades to fully climb out of their addiction.

Others are still struggling with addiction and its impacts now 20 years later, and others sadly passed away and. I also had family members who struggled, so I guess I had just always had more tenderness related to individuals with behavioral health conditions because of those lived experiences. And what has kept me invested is that many behavioral health services and supports are actually effective.

They work really well. So there's this puzzle of. How do you get providers to do less of what doesn't work and more of what does work? How do you get governments and payers to pay for what works? And most importantly, how do you get the care to the people who need it, both logistically, but also kind of breaking through the stigma that is so pervasive in our society.

And I would say another thing that has kept me invested through the years is just that I've seen. People recover, and I was lucky in my twenties to work at a nonprofit in Philly that included a bunch of. passionate, rowdy, brilliant people in recovery. And it was led by a man named Joseph Rogers, who was one of the founders of the mental health consumer movement.

So while I had been kind of addiction focused because of my life experience, this is when I got more involved and the mental health consumer movement, and it was there that I felt safe enough to acknowledge my own mental health struggles and recovery journey. But it was also there that I learned that recovery was possible and that it's more than just symptom reduction and avoiding going to the hospital or being in crisis.

It's really the ability and agency of people with behavioral health conditions to figure out what makes them fulfilled in their lives and go after it. And so when you see that kind of recovery up close and personal, it's definitely something worth trying to replicate in your life's work. So I've been trying to do that ever since.

That's amazing. And I'll say, I've had spoken with many individuals in recovery, many  working in peer support in West Virginia. I feel like they're the angels in this, I don't wanna say battle, but in this situation, challenging situation with addiction.  Yeah, there's a lot to be said there. When you founded BBS in 2017, what unmet need or opportunity were you aiming to address in the healthcare consulting space?

So I had been working at the National Council for Mental Wellbeing, as you mentioned in the very gracious intro, and I was running their consulting and federal contracting arm. I was ready to move on, and partly that was because I was kind of jealous of my consultants who got to do the work more directly with behavioral health providers.

I viewed that as the fun stuff, and I also had some pent up entrepreneurial energy, so I just decided to hang up my own shingle and I remember. Putting the word business in bowling business strategies very intentionally because I really wanted to help elevate the business sophistication of behavioral health and other human services providers so that they wouldn't be left out of the healthcare landscape, which at that point we were seeing shifts in payer models.

We were moving away from fee for service or grant funding toward outcomes or value-based payments. We were seeing increased adoption of technology to support documentation, data collection outcomes, monitoring. We were seeing that behavioral health conditions were driving more than half of all healthcare spending, but very little of that money was actually going toward treating those conditions.

So I wanted to help behavioral health providers kinda get a seat at the table in the changing healthcare landscape, whether it was. Engaging with their payers in a different way, tracking their outcomes, adopting new technologies, improving their business operations, diversifying their revenue. And we've done a good bit of that at BBS, but also a lot of our work has been with state and local governments to help them improve their systems of care, the way they're funded, the way they're configured, and the way services are implemented.

So it. Started off with this provider focus, which we've still maintained, but we've also broadened our focus to really help behavioral health entities across the continuum deliver better care for people for vulnerable populations. So this might be a challenging question. But  I just  I think it's, I'm very curious and it's very important, I feel, what do you feel is the single most urgent issue in behavioral health today, and what is standing in the way of solving it?

 Well, The reason that's a challenging question is 'cause you're limiting me to only one response. Well, I guess if you have a couple you could, you could say a couple. No, I'm joking.  okay, well, since you said I could talk about a couple, I'll just quickly touch on a few like macro level issue.

That I think are facing behavioral health and two that come to mind for me are loneliness and stigma. So there's been increased acknowledgement that there's a loneliness epidemic in America and. I think we all can think about what the causes are, whether it's the proliferation of social media, increased political tribalism, increased focus on individualism, the COVID crisis.

So I think that there's been more framing of loneliness as a public health issue because it harms both individual and societal health, and it's also associated with greater risk of. Cardiovascular disease, dementia, stroke, premature death, and a special rapport by our former surgeon General, Dr. Vivek Murthy said that the mortality impact of being socially disconnected is similar to that caused by smoking up to 15 cigarettes a day, and even greater than that associated with obesity and physical activity.

So our loneliness. Is really jeopardizing our health. I think both as individuals in a society. You know me well enough, Jean to know that I have to talk about stigma as well, and just the impact that stigma has on our responses to people with mental health conditions and addiction issues in our society.

Whether those responses are compassionate and consumer focused but also. The help seeking behavior of people with those conditions. People have internalized stigma growing up in our society when they face behavioral health challenges, and even if we had a perfect system that was able to meet them where they are and address all of their needs, there might still be internal barriers to help seeking because of that stigma.

So those are two issues that I think loom large in our society. And then there's just a lot of issues facing our behavioral health system specifically. Chronic underfunding, staffing shortages, lack of adoption of evidence-based practices, lack of data collection to really demonstrate the value proposition of behavioral healthcare.

So we're contending with these larger societal issues that impact our system and the people who might use it, but our system is also facing. Unprecedented challenges.  So there, there's a lot  standing in the way.  But I think that there are solutions to address some of these challenges. I would agree that there are solutions I.

So maternal health is a huge, huge  challenge.  And I will say I am surprised on a daily basis that how little is really known and talked about in maternal health.  We know that maternal mental health is closely tied to maternal mortality. So what promising practice or policy shifts have you seen emerge to address postpartum mental health more effectively?

Absolutely. And I agree with you that it's, it is surprising the extent to which society is uncomfortable talking about mental health and addiction within the perinatal population. It's really a reflection. Of the stigma in the behavioral health space overall. But there's something else there at the nexus of behavioral health and the perinatal population that I think further intensifies the stigma and that it operates in the shadows and, when that happens, we're not able to have these types of conversations.

So I'm so glad that you're. Asking about it, and we know that the pregnancy and postpartum period is an incredibly. Vulnerable time for women. Birth related complications remain a serious issue, but behavioral health is also, as you mentioned, a huge contributor to maternal mortality. For example, a drug overdose is the leading cause of death within the postpartum period up to one year after birth.

And then for every maternal. Death, a hundred additional women suffer the trauma of some type of severe obstetric morbidity. So some type of life threatening diagnosis, or they've undergone a life saving procedure during their delivery hospitalization. So there are lots of barriers here.  There are barriers that also obstruct their path to care.

 And those are things like penalization or punitive policies around dealing with women who have behavioral health conditions who are in the perinatal period, stigma, discrimination, limited socioeconomic resources. And another barrier is the fragmentation of care during the perinatal period. We know that.

Women may go to a different physician for their perinatal care than their primary care physician. They may interface with more than one hospital. So all of that already creates kind of a fraught picture for the healthcare experience. But when you layer in. Behavioral health conditions and makes it even more difficult.

So I think the promising practice here and, there are many, and there's actually  some good resources around how to address behavioral health in the perinatal period, but I think that integrated care models are so important for this population. And that's the idea that behavioral health shouldn't live in this specialty system requiring these women to go navigate yet another healthcare provider in order to address their behavioral health needs.

It should be embedded in the care that they're already receiving, and that can look like screening protocols for depression or substance use or anxiety. It can look like. Equipping their healthcare providers to conduct brief interventions that are kinda motivational, interviewing based short interventions designed to assess and address their behavioral health needs.

It can look like enhanced care coordination to make sure if they do need to engage with specialty or higher levels of care, they have someone who's the glue person, making sure that they're getting that. Kind of Arranged logistically, but also that the providers are talking to each other, team-based care models and also in the addiction realm.

The prescribing of medications for addiction treatment, which are highly effective for pregnant women and people in their postpartum period.  So making sure that medications like buprenorphine, methadone are  made available. To women who have addiction during that period.  But it's also important to underscore here that black women are three to four times more likely to die of pregnancy related deaths as compared to white women.

So in addition to implementing best practices, I think we also have to acknowledge the enormous health disparity that exists in this space and implement mechanisms to address those disparities. I agree a hundred percent with everything you said, and I feel like we could talk for a long time about this, but just in  as I've recently learned of the work that the  community health workers at Quality Insights are doing in Delaware with, I mean it's with our maternal health contract with Delaware. I mean, it's, the stories are profound and I'm actually gonna be recording a podcast with them because I think it is so important. To tell those stories so people know. Absolutely. Yeah, absolutely. The lived experiences are so compelling and I think the more we can share the stories from the ground, I think the more that should shape our.

Compassionate responses to pregnant and parenting people. So I'm glad and I'll look forward to hearing more about  the CHWs because the community health workers, I think they're a vital response. They're a vital component of this integrated care response.  The idea that people who are already rooted in those communities already are trusted and credible.

People and connectors in those communities that can immediately cut through some of the mistrust and some of the fear and some of the stigma in order to help people get access to care.  It's a simple notion in a way, but it's one that is not yet like ubiquitous in our healthcare system.

 So I think community health workers and other. Peer roles  are really vital, particularly in this space. Yeah. Powerful. Shifting a little bit, there's been a lot of talk about long-term psychological effects of the COVID pandemic. I know I have experienced it. And I'll say trying to heal from my experience during the COVID Pandemic and  in the nursing homes and in the hospital.

Do you think as a society, have we done the work to truly heal our collective mental health? And I think I know the answer, but I would love to hear what you, how you feel. I'm glad that you  disclosed that, that you're still recovering because I, when I, when you asked this question, that was what came to my mind immediately is  have I healed from the trauma of the COVID-19 pandemic?

And I would say that. Largely we haven't.  What I think we came out of the COVID era with that is a positive, is this acknowledgement that mental health isn't just something that some people struggle with. Mental health is something that every person has to be intentional about cultivating, and some people certainly have an easier time than others.

Cultivating it and sustaining it, but we all have to consistently invest in our mental wellbeing. In order to be okay. And so I do appreciate that in the COVID era it seems like people were more aware of that and as a result, I would like to think that it reduced some mental health stigma, that widespread acknowledgement.

But I still think people are reeling from COVID. I don't know. It may take years for us to fully understand the impact of COVID on kind of the collective psyche of America, but also. On the individual lives of children whose  schooling was disrupted, and healthcare workers like yourself, who worked in incredibly traumatizing environments.

And  people who may be engaged with a lot of social media during that period and developed maybe new addictions or impulsions around social media. I mean, I just think that there are so many tentacles to this.  But my hope is that all of that will be buttressed by an increased acknowledgement of mental health and how important it is, and that we can slowly increase our recovery and resilience over time as a result of that recommitment.

To mental health. Certainly it's something that I think we need to keep on talking about and processing and   openly discussing that we are not out of the woods yet. I know for me, whenever anyone mentions COVID, even when I'm watching TV or something, and COVID is referenced. It's like I immediately want to turn it off.

'cause I want to just push that into the past. I guess I'm arguing that we don't do what my inclination is and continue to talk about its impacts openly. Yeah, it's hard, but I, I would agree. I would love to just say, I don't wanna think about it, but we, yeah. So something that's very relevant now with  the changes politically.

You've worked closely with agencies like SAMHSA and CMS. So if you could guide the federal mental health agenda for the next five years, which would be amazing, I think I would probably jump for joy. What would you prioritize first? For one, I would say this is not a time to take a hatchet to federal government.

 And particularly the agencies that set the strategy for and fund behavioral health services. And I think we have to demand from our leaders of SAMHSA and CMS and other agencies moving forward that. That they shouldn't be committed to their own politics. They shouldn't be sowing mistrust related to Medicaid and Medicare.

They shouldn't be pushing any of their own miracle cures or ignoring the experts. I think you have to have a heart for this work and a heart for the people. That you serve. And also you have to acknowledge that certain vulnerable groups experience disparities and healthcare access, utilization, and outcomes of care, and you have to develop strategies to address that.

So now I'll get off my soapbox and answer your question about what I would prioritize. For me, there are three focus areas that I would prioritize. One is continued  adoption of the certified community behavioral health clinic model or CCBHCs. And this is a model that is. Meant to revolutionize behavioral healthcare by creating a standard set of non services that all outpatient behavioral health clinics should deliver by paying these clinics in a different way so that they can actually be more viable and sustainable.

And really centering accessibility and availability of care through care coordination, partnerships through  implementing new hours  through having open access or same day access. So this model has really become the organizing framework to make a lot of improvements in our behavioral health system.

And so I would wanna see increased focus and investment on this model as it scales nationwide. Also, as I mentioned before, integrated care I think is vital.  I don't think that behavioral health should be cordoned off into a specialty system. I think when we have the opportunity to. We should integrate behavioral health interventions into primary care and other types of care that both increases the access to behavioral healthcare for those who maybe wouldn't step foot in the four walls of a community behavioral health clinic.

But it also provides whole person care for people. Understanding that all of these conditions and challenges are often interlocking between physical and behavioral health conditions, and further it kind of destigmatizes care by saying this is a part of your overall health. It's not something where you have to go to a special center to go get it addressed.

So I would push integrated care. And then,   one of my major priorities is medications for addiction treatment. I think that  we know that it's the gold standard for addiction care, but there is still under utilization for these lifesaving medications like buprenorphine, methadone, naltrexone.

And these medications, for the most part, can be made available easily. They're safe but they are often still subject to stigma from society around people who say it could be like trading one drug for another. I mean, we've heard some of the myths and misconceptions, but really we don't apply that type of stigma to other physical.

Health conditions where people use medications as a part of their recovery and health.  So I would like to see MAT become more available as like a vital tool to continuing to address the opioid epidemic. I'm a fan of all of those things, just

so equity, as I said in in the introduction, is a core value in your work and I think equity is it is interesting place currently. So how can we better integrate culturally responsive care into mainstream behavioral health systems? And I think that's so important to not make it feel like it's a specialty or something like that's an add-on or an afterthought.

Like we should be integrating it into what we do. So how, how do we do that? Yeah, it's a great question and equity is a state in which everyone has a fair and just opportunity. To attain their highest level of health. And we know that in behavioral health there are a lot of equity issues, that show up when people are trying to access care that show up when people are utilizing their care and show up in their outcomes associated with care.

So just an example I'll share back to the kind of medications for addiction treatment that I was talking about. Black and Hispanic patients are less likely than white patients to receive medications for opioid addiction after a healthcare encounter that involved in an addiction related event. So maybe  a non-fatal overdose for existence.

So we know there's a disparity and access to these medications, and that disparity is not explained by the fact that they didn't have an event. Similar to a white person that would trigger prescribing of a medication. It's just that medication prescribing did not occur. And then additionally in studies have shown that black folks are less likely to.

Have access to take home methadone than white individuals. And that is a problem because the flexibilities of the COVID era that many of which have extended past the COVID era of being able to get, take home privileges for your methadone. Enable you to kind of make the less rest of your life work show up at your job you know, take care of your kids  all of the life obligations that folks have to deal with while they're trying to prioritize.

Their own addiction recovery. So the take homes are, really important, but we also see a disparity in  black individuals not having the same use of take home privileges. So those are just two concrete examples of how in the addiction space we see these disparities. And I think that the way that we address this is first to acknowledge.

These disparities exist. And then there's a number of strategies, I think after the acknowledgement stage that you could use, including helping providers understand their biases that many of us have internalized through years of growing up in a society that has. Racism embedded in every system.

 Another thing that I think is really important, and you mentioned community health workers earlier, is that we have to engage grassroots and community-based organizations that have inroads and. Visibility and credibility into all communities in our public health response to behavioral health.  I think Delaware is doing a really great job with this where.

They've actually identified how they can provide funding to community-based organizations that already have an equity focus or already have a deep entrusted relationship with disenfranchised communities and how if those entities are resourced correctly, they could actually help. In the connection to, or direct delivery of behavioral healthcare.

And so I'm very excited about any attempt to make sure that grassroots and community-based organizations are a part of our responses in behavioral healthcare.  Because I think that  often they are  the jewels that are. Under-resourced, they're not always able to compete for funding opportunities, maybe because of requirements around business licenses or insurances or whatever kind of strict procurement requirements exist for a lot of federal and statewide opportunities.

So I think we have to find ways to make sure that they can be engaged. I've said it a couple times, I think I've said on the podcast, the future is grassroots and the future is community and that definitely illustrates that. So workforce burnout is a huge buzzword now, and it's at a crisis level in behavioral health.

So what structural changes do you believe are necessary to retain and support the people doing work in the behavioral  mental health space. I'm glad you're asking this. I think it's anytime that we can acknowledge the behavioral health and healthcare workforce and really talk about how, what we need to do to help them.

Maintain their wellbeing. Amid this really challenging work, it's important to have this discussion and for years we talked about the triple aim in healthcare, better outcomes, lower costs, and improved patient experience. But more recently. We've shifted to the quadruple aim where we added on staff experience and wellbeing as a key aim of well-functioning healthcare system.

So we know there's a range of societal, cultural, structural, and organizational factors that contribute to burnout among health workers. That's everything from excessive workloads to administrative burdens to the lack of organizational support. And this is a complex issue, but I wanted to talk about one strategy in particular related to healthcare workforce burnout and resilience.

And this. It's actually from another surgeon general report on the healthcare workforce  that I thought had a lot of great recommendations for how we deal with this issue. But one of them was around making sure that health workers have access to affordable, confidential, and convenient mental healthcare.

Yeah, because burnout has spillover effects, and that includes anxiety and depression. And one of the quotes from this report says, we can offer flexible care models after working hours. Improve parity and access to care. Increase insurance coverage for mental health care, and eliminate punitive language in the licensing, accreditation, and credentialing of health professionals.

We can encourage vulnerability and open communication around mental health and substance use, care, and promote. Care Seeking is a sign of strength. We can offer evidence-based training and practices that support prevention, early intervention, and treatment of an array of conditions, including burnout and mental health challenges.

So I think the one thing healthcare providers can do is make sure that they're creating safe spaces to talk about the emotional toll that this work takes and the spillover effects of that burnout. And also we need to examine. Questions on applications and renewal forms for jobs and credentialing so that healthcare workers aren't deterred from seeking mental health and substance use care because they fear negative repercussions for their licensing, insurance, or careers that they seek out that care.

We also got, like I said, have to normalize conversation around mental health and substance use care, and that involves. Often just creating and normalizing opportunities for people to talk about occupational distress, grief, mental health challenges, especially following sentinel events or stressful episodes.

   At BBS we try to model this, so we pursued the Bell Seal certification from Mental Health America. Which is really focused on how to create a psychologically safe workplace through your policies and procedures, through your benefits offerings, through the conversations that you have in staff meetings, through your normalization of behavioral health.

 Discussions in the workplace. So we are recognized as a Bell Seal certified entity now because we wanted to really have an organizing framework to, to pursue a more psychologically safe workplace. We also offer a dedicated stipend for staff to use for cash. Copays for their therapy or to directly pay for therapy if it's not insurance eligible, because we want to make sure that people are cultivating their mental wellbeing.

So I, I really think that one place to start for healthcare entities is to really think about the Bells Seal certification or think about other strategies to normalize discussions around behavioral health in the workplace. I love that you're not only talking about how companies can implement, you're also implementing it, yourself at BBS.

 It's so very important. And so that's the Bell Seal certification. I think maybe we can link that in the  podcast notes. Yes,  Bell Steel certification from Mental Health America. Okay. Excellent. We'll link that. So last question, looking ahead, what gives you the most hope about the future of behavioral health and what role do you hope BBS plays in that transformation?

Yeah so, I do have hope for the future of behavioral health, and I think there's a lot of reasons to be hopeful. Not to say there aren't formidable challenges ahead, but one thing that really gives me hope is that research suggests that younger generations have a higher level of mental health literacy than prior generations.

Meaning that they know more about the signs and symptoms of behavioral health and where to get help. They're also more accepting of other people with mental health challenges. I think there's an opportunity here to really. Optimize their mental health literacy to just make sure they know how to get good help and help other people get good help.

So TikTok therapy isn't always gonna do the trick, so I think we have to really make sure that there increased mental health literacy results and increase access to care and their ability to have compassionate responses to other people in their communities. I also think that. We're moving away from a, if you build it, they will come approach to behavioral healthcare, acknowledging that it needs to be engaging, convenient, easily accessible.

That's the philosophy that's woven into the certified Community Behavioral Health clinic model that I referenced earlier.  I think that there are opportunities to embed behavioral healthcare and other non-specialty settings like primary care.  Justice settings  women's health settings.  There are also more kinda mobile behavioral healthcare units as well as opportunities to actually get reimbursed through payers for delivering behavioral health care in community settings because people.

Shouldn't have to travel long distances, wait forever to get an appointment, give up time with our family or at work, sit for lengthy assessments or even go to a specialty location every time. So I think that it's exciting to see that we are  really enhancing the accessibility and convenience of care.

And in terms of BB S's role, I think we're just. Going to continue to be clear-eyed of the multiple current challenges ahead facing behavioral healthcare in America. But we're also gonna continue to partner with our clients  state and local governments, behavioral health providers to help them design and deliver services that meet the needs of vulnerable populations and take a hold of these opportunities.

That's our great honor. That's why we show up to work every day and. I think that sometimes crisis breeds opportunity, and I think that we're about to enter a period of behavioral healthcare where a lot of innovation emerges as we face some unprecedented challenges. So I think that we want to be viewed as a partner that could help navigate the challenges and help design kind of the innovative responses in this moment in support of our clients.

Yes. And I also believe that crisis breeds opportunity. And so I am, excited hearing  your hopeful words, and I hope everyone out there is too, and I'm glad to  end the conversation on a positive note because sometimes the challenges are really overwhelming, so it's nice to have hope.

So if people want to learn more about Bowling Business Solutions BBS, how can they do that?  They can visit our website, bowling biz.com, so B-O-W-L-I-N-G-B-I z.com and they can learn more about who we are and what we do and our people.  And so that's probably the best way to get in touch with us.

And I will say having worked with Jake and his team  they are wonderful to work with. So if you have needs, I would certainly reach out. Jacob Bowl. Yeah. Jacob Bowling. Thank you so very much for being with us today. I really enjoyed the conversation. Thanks for having me, and thanks for shedding light on these important topics.

Thank you for tuning in to Taking Healthcare by Storm: Industry Insights with Quality Insights Medical Director Dr. Jean Storm. We hope that you enjoyed this episode. If you found value in what you heard, please consider subscribing to our podcast on your favorite platform.

If you have any topics or guests you'd like to see on future episodes, you can reach out to us on our website. We would love to hear from you.

So, until next time, stay curious, stay compassionate, and keep taking healthcare by storm.